
Stories from the Renegades to the Reniverse
Please read with caution - stories may contain graphic content
When I first discovered Ren he was just “a good artist” to me. I just knew I vibed with him. I was at a pretty low point in my life. My boyfriend of (at that time) 8 years was becoming an alcoholic and I had just been fired from my job for having schizophrenia. My life was going downhill, and my mental health was severely suffering (I also live with CPTSD and Bipolar 2 Disorder). I had stopped taking my medications as I believe they were poisoning me. Then one day I had a plan, I was going to take my own life by downing all of my antipsychotics and chase it with my boyfriends rum. He was at work so I knew it would be hours before anyone found me. I downloaded one last album, the Freckled Angels album. I was preparing, and one song came on and caught my ear. Pocket full of pain. The first part of the song resonated with me, and when the line came “don’t ask me why this is not my goodbye its my suicide failure attempt…. I choose life, I choose life, I choose living put the bottle and pills down, I stand up and breathe with precision” I did exactly that. I breathed through it and listened to more. That song in that moment saved my life. I went into inpatient got back on the right meds and have been seeking therapy. I am now in my master’s program for clinical mental health counseling and hopefully will be able to speak out against stigma concerning mental health. Especially surrounding schizophrenia. I have a new job (working with people who live with severe mental illness’), I have a perfect GPA and my boyfriend, and I are better than we were before (11 years going on 12 in January). Still Ren inspires me every day to stand up and keep pushing. In the end of the song he says, “Welcome change with me” well I did. And it saved my life. Thank you Ren.
How has the Reniverse helped me? Well, ain’t that a doozy?? The Reniverse arrived in my life just when I needed it to……. I’m still a relative newcomer to the world of Ren, approaching 3 years deep now. There’s not much left of Ren or The Big Push that I haven’t listened to, absorbed and thoroughly enjoyed. I’m aware of at least one song of Ren’s that I haven’t listened to…..yet. I’ll get round to that……errrr……’soon’ (sorry, I had to 😉🤣)!! Anyway, back to the point…. In February of 2020, on a Friday evening, I got a knock at the door at 11:00ish at night. I stopped the bumping and banging I had been doing in the kitchen pretending to be some sort of Gen X wonder-expert of DIY (I’m not - I can usually bodge a ‘that’ll do’ approximation, but by no means anything close to ‘expert’). So, I went to answer the door. It was the police!! …..eeek….errr….. “I’m really sorry, I’ll stop with the hammering, I’ve literally just finishe……..” “Sir…..” “….erm, yeeessss??” **WTF??** “Can we come in, please?” ……. Now, we had a houseful in, family members and friends, so I wasn’t keen on walking into the living room without the chance to instruct everybody to behave as the local constabulary had decided to pop in for……as yet unknown, but I could see in the officer’s eyes that something very important and serious needed to be discussed as immediately as possible. I beckoned both officers in! The panic already building in me, I scooted ahead to the living room and gained a second or two advantage to blurt out, “The police are here!”, to the room. Luckily nobody dived to put anything away in a hurry, so that was good 😰 Now that I had the room’s attention and as two police officers walked in behind me, I locked eyes with my wife and said, “Something’s happened”, and attempted to give her a ‘I’m sorry, honey, but what you’re about to hear is quite probably gonna be horrible……I think….but I’m right here. I love you’ look. I never actually checked if she managed to translate that non-verbal gymnastics I was performing that night. I’ll find out, one day…. So, the police explained that there had been an accident involving our daughter! **Okay? She’s okay, right?** She was in Fort William! **WTF was she doing there? That’s like 60 odd miles away** She had gone to pick up her husband who was working down there! **Sooooo, he wasn’t in the car yet??** She was on her way back towards Inverness when the accident happened! **So, he WAS in the car!!** “Oh my god, who was looking after the kids?”, I think were the first words I heard (not mine) that weren’t thoughts. The officers looked at each other, one gave the inevitable polite throat clearance before delivering the news that the two wee girls were also in the car; our daughter had taken her two lassies out on a road trip for 60-odd miles each way just because the weather was awesome, she loved to drive and it would have made her husband’s week to be picked up from his worksite on that day by his three gorgeous girls!! “Oh my God!! So what’s happening? Are they in hospital? What exactly is going on??” “Errrrrmm……*voice crack*……they were declared dead at the scene!” “Who was?? The kids are okay??” as if the kids surviving was somehow a mitigation or even a ‘bonus’. “They all…….” “Nononono……..” I wasn’t going to let him finish, the poor guy was struggling to get the words out. I’m not actually sure what happened after that - shell shock, numbness, processing, over-processing, reprocessing, re-over-processing, malfunctions. **SHIIIIIT, I need to fix that last wee plumbing job in the kitchen, because when I finally work out what that copper has just said to me, I’m not gonna be wanting to do it.** So, THAT is what I did in that moment, I was being pro-active. I didn’t want to be dealing with a leaking kitchen sink waste trap when the arse was falling out of my world in the morning - that would probably overwhelm me!! I knew there was a shitstorm coming - but at the moment, there was an eerie zen-like calm. Don’t get me wrong, we were upset - all of us, everyone in the house (our friends and family members weren’t ’ushered out’ when the police informed us) but we hadn’t quite worked out just how upset we needed to be. I think most of us kinda got the organised head on, and set about preparing the ramparts for the psychological siege we were about to be subjected to. Aaaand, what a siege that was!!! My boss at the time managed to pull some strings and authorise a full 6 months of compassionate leave (by this time, of course, Covid had kicked off, but we weren’t quite into lockdown…..yet) and I NEEDED every day of that…and probably could have done with more!! Anyway….so, the Reniverse???? Where does this come in? Right, so I had my big noisy ‘breakdown’ grieving on the day of the funeral/wake; I drunk enough Jack Daniels to destroy most mortals, and fell homewards where I slethered and drooled and cried like I’ve never cried in my life, so that checkbox was checked, right? Right!? Nuh-uh!! Grief don’t work like that!! Nah, it’s weird, it’s unpredictable, it’s exhausting!! I did my thing! I turned up for work!! I painted on that smile!! I “functioned”!! Didn’t I?? Inside, I was destroyed!! I was hurting!! I had no idea of how to let it out!! I would randomly burst out crying, get angry, feel hopeless, desolate, bleak, go numb, zone out. I was scared! I had at a point in history had what I think might have been a full-on psychotic ‘break’ (paranoia, delusions, hallucinations, malevolent voices)** and was actually twisting myself up thinking I was heading that way again if I couldn’t figure this out. **a story for another day….maybe!? I’d heard some rumblings about some independent young(ish….or, at least, a good bit younger than me) lad called Ren who had been making some sort of waves in the underground/independent music scene. My missus was playing some tunes one day and I listened to a couple of them - *okaaay, my interest in piqued*. I watched a couple of videos (Sick Boi was first, if I remember correctly) and THAT is when I realised I was watching someone special!! I tumbled headlong into the rabbit-hole after that and embraced the freefall!! It was when I first heard ‘Suic*de’ that something started to happen; when Ren cried at the end, I cried with him - I bawled my eyes out! There are songs that are powerful and will make me cry, there are songs that are beautiful and will make me cry, there are songs that are sad and will make me cry. Then there are those songs, like Suic*de, that absolutely break my heart and make me feel that all-familiar actual pain and grief. I think until that moment, only The Cure had ever managed to move me like THAT!! Hearing Ren expose himself so openly, letting it all show, even the sticky, mucus-y bits FINALLY made me sit up and realise that ‘Yes, other people are out there that know pain like mine’. “This is genuine shit! This guy is important! He knows about life…..and, naturally, death!!!” Hearing Suic*de and then For Joe a short time into the future taught me more about grief than I had learned in my life previous to that moment. It also showed me that just simply letting it out can be helpful. So that’s what I did!! I just wrote, splurged…..a poemy thingummy based on the structure and idea of the spoken heartbreak bit at the end of Suic*de!! You know what? The moment I finished that was more therapeutic, more exhilarating and more productive than the previous 4 years of blindly stumbling around not having a clue about what to do or how to find out what to do. I released my scribblings on the fantastically amazing Rabbit Hole fan page on Facebook and I was immediately inundated with some of the most beautiful, insightful and supportive comments from what can only be described as the single best community of like-minded darlings on the face of this planet. And THAT, folks, is how the Reniverse has definitely helped and is continuing to help me!! I don’t want to sound twee or cliché, but Ren’s music spoke to me, and his fans gave me a huge, warm cuddle!! Thank you all, just keep being beautiful! A Poemy Thingummy Thing It's hard to think of a time before your short lives were cut Without this paralysing pain that completely fucks me up I’ve cried an entire ocean, will it ever stop? It’s hard to see things clearly when my eyes are rough I guess “God” had decided that that’s your lot Denial and anger bubbling, sticking like a clot Bargaining, my life for yours’, it’s worth a shot Depression, cutting deep before more accepting thoughts I try not to think about that sprawling moment on that fateful night Coming round that bend full of panic and dreadful fright Two sweet angels oblivious to the shadow blocking the light Lurking, hiding, waiting until the moment was wrong (or is that right?) A gaping void where your smile once lived I can’t really total up what I would fucking give To see it once again and heal this massive rift Just another moment with you here would be the greatest gift I miss the flying, whirling, spinning dance To the crazy rap about the Enderman I even miss your unhinged, don’t-give-a-fuck rants About silly shit like where himself dumps his pants You were all shining beacons glowing in a broken world Glimmers of pure light, before life was violently hurled Into chaos, darkness and untold hurt Why you? Why him? Why them? Absurd Four years on and I’m still not sure If there’s even such a thing as a cure For the desolate, lonely result of your Absence from this world - I love you pure
I should start by saying I had a pretty traumatic childhood (excuse the cliche) & I didn’t deal with any of it. I was taught to just ignore it all and move on. All my relationships have been tumultuous as well. To make a long story short, from 2022-2025 I was basically living in survival mode. I had become a zombie without even realizing it. Trying to deal with crisis after crisis.. deaths in the family, my husbands struggles with mental health, losing my job and almost becoming homeless etc. trying to hold it all together on the surface for my kids’ sake. April 2025 was the last straw. I finally broke. I hadn’t really been feeling much emotion up to that point, but when the flood gates opened it almost drowned me. I would feel extremely depressed and heartbroken one day and feel like my emotions were far away from me the next. (Derealization?) Past trauma started to come up. I could barely stand to be touched and all I wanted to do was lay in bed all day and cry. I became an insomniac & my weight fluctuated up and down. I felt like a bad mother and wife. I started fantasizing & longing to end it, which scared me for my family’s sake. Thanks to good ole American health insurance I couldn’t get in to see my PC & none of the therapies I found online were covered. Crisis hotlines never answered. I accepted that I just had to bear it all & keep going. Then one sleepless night on YouTube I heard Hi Ren. Something about the wrestling with your own mind struck a chord in me. I Became obsessed with the song & soon found myself tumbling down the rabbit hole. This music not only put words to some of what I was experiencing, but it also became a distraction when things got too heavy. Hearing a new song, watching a busking video, or finding other artists like The Skinner Brothers gave me something to look forward to, silly as it might sound. Ren’s story was inspiring & made me want to get up everyday and try a little harder. The community offered kind words and even laughs. I started opening up a little to strangers across oceans who all cared about each other. Didn’t know I kind of needed it. I’ve always been a loner. It’s been over a year and some days I still struggle, but I know now that it’s going to get better. I’m slowly finding myself and my love of life again. I truly don’t know if I would’ve made it this far without randomly stumbling upon some Welsh dude with a funny haircut😅 The world is a mysterious place. But I know that Ren has a purpose here. He just being himself but it’s touching so many lives. I will forever be greatful to him, his team for making it all possible & the Renegades. ❤️
Thank you so much for this opportunity. English is not my first language, but i love it and i try my best :D I write right from my heart and try to keep it as short as possible :D I've been through a lot dark places in my live, lost my mum cause of cancer when i was 11, my dad was drinker and not much of dad before and after her death, so i had to take care of my self. Because of trauma, eating dissorder, self harm, suicide attemps i had to life in an child psychiatry for a few month and after that i moved in to an assisted living till 18 (still with therapy). Fast forward a few years..i am the only living member of my family, parents, grandparents, substitute gradma, aunt..all gone. The bottle is my friend so, hello therapy..again.. I thought everything was good when i got married in 2018, and got pregnant..Bam..I lost my baby in 2019. And yes, therapy again.. I am through a lot of shit and dealt with it like always..stop eating, cutting, selfhate etc.. But i am still here and 2020 i got my beautiful babyboy, we share our birthday 26.4 :) All is fine now right ? Haha.. Last year i lost my soul cat..he and his siblings were always there and the reason why i survived my depression. So i stopped eating, went to my tattoo artist and a piercer. I stopped drinking 2017, so tattoos are my new solution. And this year (June) we lost our girl dog, very sudden. I still have ptbs, depression (and a bit adhd) and i'm fighting every fucking day against my demons..laughing, working, masking so noone has to see it and worry, but it's so exhausting. I've been through neglection, violence, abuse, poverty, self harm, depression, isolation, death wish etc. but music was always there, first (of course) linkin park, later system of down, various rockbands, Twenty One Pilots and our boy. They all knew the pain of mental illness (still not over chesters death 😞). I felt so seen. Because of Ren and the Pilots i had overcome my fear of flighing to see them an ape. It was amazing, i cried during chalk outlines and drag path ^^ I know it's not a particiular ren story, but it comes all down to him and his music. Without him and the others i would go insane, thinking i'm the only one with a twisted brain. It's so important to stick together so the demons don't have a chance to get us. No matter how dark it's right now, we must remember the light and our strength. Good god..it's longer than it should be..sorry 🙈 And i'm sure i forgot something^^ Thank you so much for your time to read this. I love your page, effort and humor :) (I really hope you understand my scribbles) Love and greetings from germany ❤️🤘
Several years ago when ren shared the story of his friends suicide it gripped my heart. I’m way older than him but his story completly resonated. I remember reaching out to him via messenger as my younger sister had killed herself at 14. He wasn’t as big then nationwide but he was big in wales and and had a huge following. He didn’t just read my message but replied and we had a conversation. I felt seen, I felt through his words that the world up until then had no idea how these things impact. The conversation is private but since then I’ve found the words that are not said in his his music.. the feelings portrayed and the hidden effects. So much of his music resonates. I was lucky enough to see him perform this treat and get to front and actually lock hands and eyes. He doesn’t know what he saved me from but boii he didn’t just have my life he gave me hope. His music, his appreciation for his his fans is something that I cannot commend enough.. I was a 90s teen and have been lucky enough to see some of the “biggest” performers in the world. I attended live 8.., I’ve done 10 Glastonbury’s but nothing ever will compare to the day I danced at the front at his
I joined Ren's community and I have made a lot of amazing friends through that cheeky lad. My favorite, however, has always been the Meme Queen and beloved several crabs, NastyCrabcakes. She's an absolute sweetheart and I cannot wait to get crabs from her again. Also, she has the cutest dog. Crabby Note: Flattery will get you everywhere.
My second Genesis 1,000 days ago, today, 4am, I came to, disoriented, halfway under my bed, and my face bleeding. This was my 7th overdose, and my final fix. Troubles, I had them, my uncomfortable companion. Su!cide was a very appealing option. Fentanyl was my crutch, in the worst way. I knew its intentions were to leave me in a chalk outline, permanently, like so many freckled angels before me. I completely forgot how to be... Me. Broken and beat, definitely twisted and so very tested, I crawled and climbed out of rock bottoms cellar, and I stood up, on my OWN two feet. Something changed. As destroyed as I felt and looked, I somehow found hope... You know the voice. That very moment, my brain changed, I looked inside, and insight guided me. I chose life that very instant, and I never looked back. Roughly 500 days after that OD, and into my clean time, this Welsh Boi in a wheelchair showed up on my YT feed. Ren?? Sick Boi?? What the hell is a Renegade?? Holy s**t, what is this, who is this?? Although I was healthy and much happier, I had NO IDEA about this light that is Ren. This light that is ALL OF YOU. This light that was waiting for me. My pendulum had seen enough darkness. And, when I let this light in, well, I've never seen anything quite so bright. I regained my POWER, I'm still filling up my whole bucket. I found a healing that can only be found inside an intricate design of kicks and snares and fat bass lines. Life is definitely funny. I am beyond honored to claim all of you. I am forever grateful , you are pure sunshine. A community full of love, beauty, tremendous creativity, survivors, fighters and endless compassion. Thank you for allowing full transparency. Our stories can save lives. And, in this family, we are never, EVER ALONE.
Hi Crabs I am a dad of 2, A she is 19 and my son O he is 12 and I have a long term partner called S and we live in North Wales about 30 mins away from were Ren used to live. I got into Ren's world about 3 years ago when my friend D posted up this new song called Hi Ren and it resonated deep within my soul, a song and style of music I have never felt/heard before and that was the start of my journey down the rabbit hole. I then started listening to his back catalogue and waited for each song to come out with baited breath, then I found the amazing Rencord which was buzzing back then (not as busy these days but there are still a few hardcore RENegades on there) and at the start of the amazing treasure hunt he and this amazing friends group made for his sick boi album release (made me wish to learn computer code just for the reason of completing some of the clues). I love the community Ren has given all of us and hope that his music will lead us all to a brighter future of unity and understanding of people so we can become one planet of people United in trying to save their planet instead of a people against people that are destroying the very planet we live on. I don't have much free time to myself as I am a full time carer for my son O, who has CP lvl 5, epilepsy, global development delay and bowel issues and my partner sooze who has a lot of lifelong issues that has presented more of the last 10 years and she is getting sicker and sicker. I have a hobby of taking photos and editing photos for people when I get some free time as it takes my minds away for a while, helping others can help my own mental situation sometimes. The loneliness of being a carer and the constant back pain and hormone issues I am suffering with makes rens music and community a mental lifeline for me, I am sad I will never be able to see him or any of the independent artists I have got into because of his music live because of the lack of time and money (being an unpaid carer does not pay well in Wales) but will always support him and this amazing community any way I can (by buying music off bandcamp and edits photos for people or giving an open ear to anyone who wants to talk). Life can be lonely if you let it We need connection just admit. Listening to music can change you inside Can give you thoughts or rules to abide From this music community will be created You can use it to surround yourself be armour plated. A genius who created this place and music Is a master of lyrics and knows how to use it Ren we are gratetful to you and your team Because without you life would be obscene. A message clear if though from above One world One people One love. Thank you to our queen of crabs for give me this platform to chat on and for sharing part of her on here too this is just the last 19 years of my life and they are the years that matter most to me. The previous ones started with abuse mental and physical (thanks for that family) and then to many years of aimless work ( I have had about 50 different jobs and somehow in that time I trained as an electrician) self abuse with drugs and alcohol (I have been tea total for the last 12 years) and its not the proudest time of my life but I can say I learnt alot about life and people in this time. Thank you again and much love to you all
Hi dear team of nastycrabcakes, Thank you for introducing Letters to the Reniverse on instagram, that’s a beautiful idea. I want to share a few heartfelt thoughts and feelings. Ren and the Renegade community mean so much to me and inspire me deeply. I love listening to Ren speak about society, current events, and how to work towards a better future for all of us, as well as reading his posts and immersing myself in his music. I live alone and have always been naturally shy and reserved, finding communication quite challenging ever since childhood. Whenever several people look at me expecting me to speak, panic sets in and I just want to disappear. I still struggle with self-confidence in my personal life, especially following a past relationship that was difficult, violent and painful, leaving behind a thick wall around me that feels impossible to break down. Expressing my feelings in public has always felt quite impossible. On that journey with Ren and this community, they have been like a lighthouse on the horizon ever since I discovered this community, guiding me through dark moments, and sometimes acting like a mirror that helps me reflect and see what needs healing, where I can do things better. Lately, I’ve managed to open up a bit more to others, accept myself, and gain a little self-confidence, but there’s still a very long way to go. I’m discovering how healing simple human connections can be, even something as humble as helping a stranger find their way, or just getting a smile and saying hello to a stranger who crosses my way for just a few seconds. The Renegade community holds a genuine kindness that is very rare to find elsewhere. I often feel it whenever I gather the courage to exchange a few words, particularly on Patreon. I want to make this kindness the driving compass of my life, striving to become a better person every day. When people cross my path looking upset or unwell, I want to be able to meet them with patience, active listening, and understanding rather than judgment. In the past, I used to jump to conclusions too quickly without taking a moment to think or ask myself why a person might appear stressed or even disagreeable. That is what Ren’s spirit inspires in me: staying humble, questioning myself, and remembering that every new day we are given brings an opportunity to learn. I have learned a lot from Ren and this community. Ren and this entire community represent kindness, authentic sharing, and the genuine hope that our society can heal and stand tall again. Being a part of this journey brings me immense joy, and I am truly proud to be a Renegade alongside all of you. Just writing these few words makes me feel better. I feel like I’ve managed to knock a brick or two out of the wall that has been trapping me inside for years. I wish all the Renegades, and everyone who shares these noble values of kindness and respect, pure happiness and the strength to overcome any difficult situation that life may throw at them. Together, by listening to and respecting one another, we can make it. This is the awareness that the Renivers has given me. Wishing you a beautiful evening, With heartfelt regards, C
Hi dear team of nastycrabcakes, Thank you for introducing Letters to the Reniverse on instagram, that’s a beautiful idea. I want to share a few heartfelt thoughts and feelings. Ren and the Renegade community mean so much to me and inspire me deeply. I love listening to Ren speak about society, current events, and how to work towards a better future for all of us, as well as reading his posts and immersing myself in his music. I live alone and have always been naturally shy and reserved, finding communication quite challenging ever since childhood. Whenever several people look at me expecting me to speak, panic sets in and I just want to disappear. I still struggle with self-confidence in my personal life, especially following a past relationship that was difficult, violent and painful, leaving behind a thick wall around me that feels impossible to break down. Expressing my feelings in public has always felt quite impossible. On that journey with Ren and this community, they have been like a lighthouse on the horizon ever since I discovered this community, guiding me through dark moments, and sometimes acting like a mirror that helps me reflect and see what needs healing, where I can do things better. Lately, I’ve managed to open up a bit more to others, accept myself, and gain a little self-confidence, but there’s still a very long way to go. I’m discovering how healing simple human connections can be, even something as humble as helping a stranger find their way, or just getting a smile and saying hello to a stranger who crosses my way for just a few seconds. The Renegade community holds a genuine kindness that is very rare to find elsewhere. I often feel it whenever I gather the courage to exchange a few words, particularly on Patreon. I want to make this kindness the driving compass of my life, striving to become a better person every day. When people cross my path looking upset or unwell, I want to be able to meet them with patience, active listening, and understanding rather than judgment. In the past, I used to jump to conclusions too quickly without taking a moment to think or ask myself why a person might appear stressed or even disagreeable. That is what Ren’s spirit inspires in me: staying humble, questioning myself, and remembering that every new day we are given brings an opportunity to learn. I have learned a lot from Ren and this community. Ren and this entire community represent kindness, authentic sharing, and the genuine hope that our society can heal and stand tall again. Being a part of this journey brings me immense joy, and I am truly proud to be a Renegade alongside all of you. Just writing these few words makes me feel better. I feel like I’ve managed to knock a brick or two out of the wall that has been trapping me inside for years. I wish all the Renegades, and everyone who shares these noble values of kindness and respect, pure happiness and the strength to overcome any difficult situation that life may throw at them. Together, by listening to and respecting one another, we can make it. This is the awareness that the Renivers has given me. Wishing you a beautiful evening, With heartfelt regards, C
Hello, I'm sending my short story. I discovered Ren recently, and the first song I heard was “Caskets”. At the time, I was going through a lot, as I had just found out that my grandmother had been diagnosed with two types of cancer, both in the late stages. I'm not someone who likes to share my feelings or emotions often, not even with my family. I started to like Caskets right away. I felt like the song said what I couldn’t put into words myself. Every time I heard it, it made me cry, but it also made me feel better. I didn't feel alone with my thoughts. I replayed the song many times in a row. In a way, it felt therapeutic to listen to it. This song made me feel good because it reminded me that she wouldn’t be forgotten and that she would always be in my thoughts and memories. It’s been almost a month since my grandmother died. The song still makes me cry, but it also reminds me of all the beautiful times I shared with my grandmother. Whenever I hear it, the memories of my grandmother and me somehow start replaying in my head. I feel like this song will always have a special place in my heart.
Ren's music has helped me get through some dark times. I suffer from epilepsy, and depression due to the medication. A lot of people leave because they didn't "wanna to deal with it". I found a lot of comfort in Ren's music especially in Demo's vol. 2. It dragged me out of that dark hole I found myself in during a massive art block. It's hard to find an artist/musician who can relate to people who have medical issues and apply them to their music so freely and speak about it so openly. it makes it easier to speak about it myself to those who did stick around. I live in the south east of the US so my chances of actually seeing him are little to none but seeing him achieve his dreams against everything that's been thrown at him gives me hope i can do the same.
